Hello, everybody. Welcome to our very first STEMcognito interview series. We, I have the pleasure today to talk to our CEO, Dr. Marta Gabryelska. And we’re going to talk about what she thinks about science communication, why she’s so passionate about it, and why she wanted to start the project STEMcognito where you can actually see this video right now. And we’re going to talk about science in general. So you’re gonna, she’s gonna respond to all your questions that you had about her favorite topic, and the research project that she’s working on. And I welcome you, by the way. It’s nice to see you too. And I will just add that this is my first interview, therefore, I am a bit nervous. But I’m sure we can do it really well. Yeah, it’s gonna be fine. So Marta and I, we actually met virtually, like everyone else these days, about four, four months ago now, when she was asking for people to join her on this project for STEMcognito. And the goal was to provide scientists with a video platform, so that people like her that are in a different timezone than the rest of the research community have access to all the amazing scientific content that is out there. So Marta had this Tweet. And a couple of people, I don’t even know how many people responded to that one. I think it was around 10 people initially, then I messaged them, and then in the end, we are five of us. Five now. Yes. So fantastic project. Yes, five people of us found the STEMcognito platform. And yeah, we’re all working on that. So today, we kind of want to introduce it. And yeah, just chat about it. So you as our CEO, why do you think, why did you even wanted to start the STEMcognito platform? What was your initiative behind that? So as you said, there was just this idea that now when I live in Australia, I feel a bit isolated from the rest of the world. And now with all COVID pandemic and the whole situation, and that all our lives are now on internet, on zoom meetings, zoom conferences, other virtual events. And if so, we can’t even go to conferences, for now at least. So the only way to see other people’s scientific talks is to actually turn on your computer. The problem is that, for example, when you live in Australia, a lot of interesting scientific talks from for example, US or Canada, Europe can happen in the middle of the night. And as I am a great fan of science, I also love sleeping. It was just really a problem for me. So I thought there must be some platform that already exists and stores all these fantastic webinars that I wanted to see. But I couldn’t find anything. I mean, there are there, there are, like, separate websites, somebody has a webinar here and there. But there’s nothing that would bring them all together. There’s also a bit of YouTube, but it is YouTube, yes. Everything. And I wanted them to that maybe we could form something more personal, like something smaller, really devoted for STEM to keep scientists, like to bring them together, like a virtual neverending conference. But on the other hand, we could also share what we do to the public. So they could actually participate in this conference and maybe be more interested in what we do. So you basically wanted to reach both scientists and non scientists with the platform. Yes, this is a platform which is supposed to join these groups which are a bit separated. That’s because scientists are really sometimes really focused on their experiments, on the technologies and things and they sometimes forget that there are these people who are actually giving money to foundations, that they are actually sponsors of your science. And they, maybe it’s it’s really difficult to explain what you do, to them. But I think it’s important to try and as I learned during my grant applications, that really, this outreach, it’s really very important. Which is when I was starting thinking about it, that it makes a lot of sense. It’s just, where do I put it? I didn’t see myself as a YouTuber. And my writing is not that great. So actually, what should I do? And the only thing that I should, just chase people who, for example, can interview me, but I didn’t feel like asking, I wanted to create something a bit new, a bit open. So this is why STEMcognito exists. So you don’t need to ask anyone, you just you can just simply submit your video. And we will just view it of course, for the quality. If we don’t understand it, we can ask questions. But basically, it’s up to any of you who are seeing this right now. Or in the future. It’s just up to you the level of complexity that you want to explain your science, whether you want to just talk to your fellow scientists, or would you like to maybe present your results to your mom who lives on the other continent? And then you just need to simplify it, but your science and then she can just watch it? And she will be probably really happy about that. Yeah, that’s that’s a really good summary of why scientists should actually use the STEMcognito platform, is there. What do you think like, what using the STEMcognito platform help scientists advance in their own career? Besides from the science communication aspect, which we know it’s really important to bring science out into people? But what do you think about the career options that scientists have by doing science communication? Well, there are a few options that STEMcognito, for example, offers is each of your outputs can be basically cited. And it’s one of your additional outputs showing your initiative, how do you want to communicate your science. Also, if you want to provide a video of your like super scientific content, you can share it with your collaborators, you can make people in other Institute’s in other universities aware of what you’re doing. So basically, make your scientific profile bigger, make yourself more visible, and it’s actually our job to make you visible. Because when you submit the video, we will do the rest, we will do the marketing for you. And we will just shout about that science, so that you can get more citations. And if you get more citations, your science is going up in the hierarchy of academia, so we have better chances of getting grants. And then you can always in your grants, you can put a tiny bit of money for scientific communication. And and you can just make it bigger. So yeah, and everybody wins!. Yes. Because we all know that scientists have problems with marketing themselves, right? How to reach out to the people without being too salesy, and yes, because scientists usually stay within their own community. And yeah, don’t like to brag about their stuff. It’s that’s a really good, that’s a really good goal of a platform. Yes. Yeah. I don’t know, like for all the scientists, but I know that many. Many Yes. They chose the laboratory not to interact with too many people, like to sale I don’t know, super complicated machines. We really love our equipment, and the coziness of the laboratory. So that might explain why we we need sometimes a bit of help to work with you. Yeah. So since we talk about career options of scientists, one of the question, from social media was actually what advice would you give to young scientists these days? Because we know especially with a pandemic, scientists face so many challenges, and traveling has been more challenging than ever. And, yeah, nobody really knows what’s going to happen in the next month or years. So what do you think a scientist should do right now to advance their career or to stay on top of the game? Basically, what is your thought on that? Well, for me, every time I reach a problem, an obstacle, I’m trying to really turn it around and use it to my advantage. So for example, now we can’t go to conferences, we all are on Zoom. So what we can do, we can found STEMcognito platform. So using this not happy circumstances to build something new and good. So try it. My advice would be to always try when life gives you lemons just to make this lemonade. You can also make lemon curd, delicious; lemon meringue pie is fantastic. What else lemons are very good for cleaning, like you can add lemon skin to the dishwasher. And it just smells nice. So as you can see, lemons have many, and use them in many ways. And this is with any disadvantage that you encounter. And the second advice is you need to always think about your mental health, and never really drive yourself to complete exhaustion. Because you need to first of all, take care of yourself to be able to take care of your project, of your family, of your job or jobs. So yeah, you need to take care of yourself. And when you are calm and rested, make a list of things you can do to solve your problems. And just yeah, just we need to do it. Mental health is a really big challenge, and especially in academia in the center. Oh, definitely, yes. And what do you think about the challenges that women face in STEM? Because there’s been a lot of talk about this as well, in academia and in the STEM field in general? You as a woman, obviously, what do you think are the challenges for women? Women in any field, and it’s not only STEM. But as a woman in STEM, I just experienced a few. So well, I like thinking recently, women got the right to vote in the previous century. So basically, and we are still keep fighting for equal rights, equity, and closing the pay gap. Which, yeah, it’s a big issue. But for me, as a woman, the biggest issue in science and in STEM is that contracts that we are hired on, they are always short term. And as a woman who is taking care of a family. It gives me so much uncertainty and anxiety about the future that, for me is the cause why many women could quit academia and try to find positions, which will give them security. The second thing is, it doesn’t matter, maybe if males or females. But if you are in a relationship, and you are working in academia, for example, in STEM, there is often a need to travel and to change country. I myself, I moved to Scotland, in the UK and now to Australia. And I was actually lucky. And my partner came to Australia with me. But there are many people in relationships where the partner has actually secure, better paid job, not on the contract. And I can’t imagine that they will decide really to quit, because their partner got a two year contract at the other side of the world, therefore they will just compromised a career, which was pretty solid to something which is uncertain? Less certain, less of duration, less money, obviously, quite often. Yeah. And more work more stress. Yes, it’s Yeah. Yeah. You know, when you have kids, it’s getting even more complicated because of schools, you need to pay for the schools. I once was offered, sort of, like almost offered, the position I was considering in a country, one country, but after paying for the school for kids, and for the housing, there’ll be nothing left. Yeah. Basically, and you can’t, if two people are moving together, like into another country, it’s really unlikely to find jobs, both of us. Yeah, of course. Yeah. That’s a really important point. Yes. That people also often don’t see. Yeah. Yeah, it sometimes seems that career instead might be only for single, childless people. Yes. Which is not and it’s sad. No, I’m not saying it is. It’s just it gives such impression because also you need to spend a lot of time, you are expected to work on weekends and evenings and mornings and we need life, we need to rest and our health is suffering. So. So it’s hard. Yeah. It’s not easy. But I see that you’re coping quite well. I mean, you have, you have your own research career. Plus, you have all these projects on top of your research career like with STEMcognito and everything else, so. I just hate being bored. So I keep finding myself things to do. Yeah, that’s good. To prevent myself from doing all the housework, which you know, maybe a big fan, but I have so many job things to do, and then I can use it. Fair enough. Yeah. Good. Okay, then let’s, let’s switch a bit to your actual research project. So you are an expert on RNA. And a lot of people are probably now thinking, what the heck is RNA? I’ve heard of DNA and all this stuff. But what is actually RNA? And how would you explain RNA to the non scientific community, because a lot of our viewers and listeners are from the non scientific community. So what is your go on that? Okay, let me try. Well, during COVID, I think at least the word RNA is no longer so mysterious to everyone. However, to explain it, the easiest way to explain is that RNA is just the cousin of DNA. It’s similar. It is built from very similar building blocks, but it has different function. DNA, for example, is built from two strands, which really match each other fantastically. And RNA is built only from one, but sometimes it can have different structures. So it can match pieces of itself somewhere. But the building blocks are very similar. And DNA stores the genetic information, the information about our genes, but to actually extract this information, you need RNA. So there’s RNA, RNA extracts information from DNA, and then RNA can be used to build proteins that build our body. Okay, so what do you mean with extract information from the DNA? How is what do you mean by that? is it taking out some some stuff some something out of the DNA and takes it into its own? What do you mean by that? So because DNA and RNA are built from very similar blocks, and RNA can basically be built on one piece of DNA. So DNA is double stranded, there are two pieces, when you just make it, you can build something on this template. Okay. So you can build either a DNA, during so called replication, or you can build RNA, in the process transcription, so you will, DNA is your template, and RNA is the product. So because they are using the same blocks, you’re just having sort of a copy. So this is this extraction of information. And then, this RNA is used, and these building blocks are read by specific machines in the cells called ribosomes. And protein is being made on this RNA. But it’s a very simple, simplistic view of RNA. Okay. Because recently we learnt about so many different functions of RNA, and that there are so many RNAs with no function or unknown function, and that basically, it’s mind blowing. Okay, okay, so, okay, let’s, let’s start at one point at a time. So the question I have from all of this is, so you have two strands of DNA that are parallel to each other, or complementary, as scientists call it, and you have only one strand of RNA. So why do you need two strands of DNA but only one strand of RNA? Is there a problem with stability between these two strands? Or why? Yeah. Can DNA not be on its own, it always needs to be like double stranded or what makes RNA more stable? So DNA doesn’t have to be in two strands, there are situations, there is only one strand. But in our bodies, it’s two strands, which are just glued to each other. Okay? And unless it’s this transcription process, so this is to make our DNA more stable. It’s one of the reasons and also when our cells divide. So you have one cell, and then it divides, you have two cells, it means that you need to copy your DNA to these two cells. So what cell is doing is actually opening this DNA and building another DNA strand on these both pieces. Now I need another hands, but you have one that will be double stranded, and then the second one, and then it can go to this two cells. So you can just multiply your genes, and it will be the same in each of your cells. But RNA is just being produced in the cell all the time, from different bits of DNA. So you don’t need to have it in two strands. It’s also, there are additional mechanisms that are keeping DNA sort of almost intact, to keep us safer from mutations. And the machinery that is making DNA is making less mistakes, then when it’s making RNA. Okay. RNA has much more changes, because the machinery is not that accurate. Okay. That also underlies the issue with RNA viruses, which we talk a lot right now that they are they have much more mutations, because machinery making RNA is making more mistakes. Causing viruses to change. Yes. Okay. So Exactly. You’re talking about the instability of RNA. Does this also mean that RNA viruses are less stable than DNA viruses? Because these two forms of viruses exist? And, yes, so what’s the issue with it? So the issue with stability of RNA viruses, I’m not a viriologist, but I’m RNA person. So I can just tell the basics, I think, is that as I said, when you make a copy of this RNA, there will be more mistakes. And if there’ll be more mistakes with each copy of the virus, it’s more likely that it will acquire new features that will for example, being easier transmitted to other people. And on the other hand, RNA is less stable. Because, so it should be easier to kill. Because of one chemical feature, which is additional, so called hydroxyl group in the RNA, which is meaning there is additional oxygen atom. And this atom can attack RNA inside of it and just make it breaking. So, wait, the oxygen and RNA can attack itself and destroy itself. But how does that work? Why does nature come up with this kind of mechanisms? Tell me? Yeah, that’s a very good question. I think also, nature is a bit ahead of us because it had around 3.5 billion years to work on this thing. So we just started working on things like 1953 when the DNA structure was presented. So I think we have pretty much a lot to discover still. Yeah, but yeah, it’s, that’s why it’s so fascinating to actually work on and not only now, but in general, there are so many different types and so much unknown. That is just really keep my mind going, what is out there and what can we find? Okay, okay, so then, as I said, what about the RNA attack on itself? Please, tell me about this, okay. Okay. So, in DNA, you have so called deoxyribose, which is a little sugar. Deoxy means without oxygen, right? Without oxygen? Yes. And in RNA, you have ribose. Yes. And there is no deoxy meaning the oxygen is there, you have the oxygen, yes. Okay. Yeah. And this oxygen, which is not in DNA, but it’s in RNA, it’s very close to another important part of RNA, which is a phosphorus atom, okay. And which is surrounded with some other oxygens. Anyway, because this phosphorus atom is exposed to this oxygen, sometimes, in specific conditions, the oxygen is just attacking this phosphorus. Okay. The oxygen just comes and shoots arrows or what is it doing? What do you mean? Well, oxygen has it has like a negative charge there. Negative charges are very attracted to the positive charge of phosphorus. Okay. Makes them a nice couple. This coupling and meeting is causing RNA breaking in the phosphodiester bond. Yeah, but yeah. So the oxygen attacks the phosphate and then the phosphate says: “okay, bye, I’m gone”. I’m going to leave the rest of the okay. So, this is how RNA basically breaks up. Yeah. This is one way that it can easily happen. The other thing is that there are these enzymes meaning there are these little invisible things called RNAses, which are enzymes which just love destroying RNA. And we have them in ourselves, but we have them separated, because otherwise cell will die. But every time in all the surfaces these RNAses are there. So for example, when you are a scientist working with RNA, you need to wear your gloves all the time. Because you can if you basically if you touch this RNA with hand without your gloves, then basically everything will be degraded. These enzymes are super powerful, if they are super hard to destroy, you can cook them and they will still be able to destroy. Okay, so, okay, so working with RNA must be really challenging in the lab then, yes? Yeah. Okay, okay. No, you’re just kind of tube with this RNA, and you’re just, oh, God, I will not breathe into it because. Okay. Viruses, bacteria, no RNA, experiment is gone. Well, okay, so you talked a lot about RNA now. And but we still don’t really understand or like a probably our audience still doesn’t really know, what is the function of RNA because you said, the RNA has a lot of function. And apparently, it’s super important, because you devoted your whole research career to this fascinating molecule. So what why is on so important to study? Why do we need this? What are the functions that we can we actually use them in our everyday world? Or what is your take on that? Well, as an RNA scientist, I need to say that RNA is the most important molecule of all. And then there might be comments, say no, DNA is more…, now proteins are more important! No. As an RNA biochemist, I need to say that RNA is the most important. Okay. Let’s start that with the fact that there’s the hypothesis of the RNA world, which was preceding the DNA world. So before DNA was invented by nature, many scientists believe that the RNA was actually the first one. Okay, that’s interesting. So RNA was there first, and then DNA was produced out of that from that? Yeah. Okay. That’s interesting. Yeah, so RNA was first, but it was causing a bit of the trouble because it wasn’t stable. So DNA appeared, it was actually perfect for storing this genetic information. And allowing enough changes to actually allow the evolution but not being changed so much crazily like RNA that we would just couldn’t really evolve anyway. But we can see the remnants of this RNA world in our cells. For example, to make proteins, you need RNA. And you need so called messenger RNA, a template, but you also need another types of RNA that come to assist. And the whole machinery that makes proteins which is called the ribosome is made of RNA, as you can. Well, there’s a lot of RNA going on, heh, in our bodies? It’s a lot and the exact chemical reaction which is actually making the protein is catalytically made by RNA. So without RNA, you have no proteins, so nothing works without RNA. Nothing. Well, yeah. Okay, no, I take it. Yeah. So you need these proteins, right? You can’t make them without RNA. Okay. To make DNA, you need proteins. And to make DNA, you actually need little pieces of RNA to start making DNA. So basically, RNA is really important to make these things. Additionally, all this energy, little energy molecules, which are in our cells, like they are called complicated names like ATP. They are also made of the ribose things, not deoxyribose. Right. So right. Ribose is a little sugar that builds, it’s part of the building block of RNA. Okay. Okay. And it’s important in RNA and DNA and also in the energy molecule ATP. Wow, yeah. Fascinating. Awesome. So what? Which project are you working on? And then can we use any of that in our everyday applications? Or how can how basically, can people relate to your work? What can they? How could they use it at some point? So currently, I’m working on what is called RNA interactomics in cancer.Okay. I’m trying to understand is how all of these many different types of molecules of RNA floating in the cells are interacting with each other? They are interacting with DNA, they are interacting with proteins, there’s lots of going on. It’s like I’m trying to do like COVID tracking, but for the molecules inside the cells. Who, when for what, how long? And what did they talk about? Okay, let’s make it like a dating app for RNA, what you’re doing? Yeah. That’s brilliant. I will actually, I will now focus, so it’s a dating app for RNA molecules. Okay. I’m recording the experience and I’m just witnessing. So yeah, I’m trying to record what is happening in a healthy cell. What do they need? And what is in cancer cell. Okay. To actually find not the bad molecules, but the bad interactions. So instead of, you know, destroying the bad molecules, which are bad in the cancer cell, just because there’s a lot of them, at the same time, you’re destroying healthy cells too. Yeah. How about if we find interaction, which is happening only in cancer cells, and we will think of how to distort this interaction. No, that is only in cancer cells, not in healthy cells. So you will be able to target only the bad stuff. Not being super sick with for example, chemotherapy, but it’s just what I want to do. And I’m just in the middle of. So okay. So you’re still trying to understand the whole dating community of yourself. And you’re trying to find out that the bad couples that are toxic to each other, basically, where there’s no future for that relationship, and then you’re trying at some point trying to interrupt these couples, right? It is exactly that! Nice. Awesome. Okay. And then one of the questions we had on social media as well was, there’s RNA vaccines available now for the COVID disease, as we all know, it’s there also chances of DNA vaccines, because this already exists. So why didn’t we use DNA vaccine for the COVID disease? Well, currently, there are as I was preparing some videos for STEMcognito to fight misinformation in COVID. I was actually learning quite a lot about these vaccines. Currently, there are like many different types of vaccines being developed, we hear a lot about mRNA vaccines because this is something new, and it wasn’t done before for the viral infection, that say they were working on using them for, for example, cancer, fighting cancer. But they’re also DNA vaccines, and they are being, some of them are being accepted or are in the middle of production. And it’s just similar. It’s just that it’s a circular so called plasmid, which is a circular piece of DNA. That then again, as I explained at the beginning, it will be changed into RNA, transcribed, and then make the same protein which is triggering the immune response, which is the spike protein. So they exist, it’s just with RNA production, it’s seems faster to just develop the system and in case of any changes of variants. It will be easier to manipulate the change, adjust this vaccine faster to the changes of the virus. So that it’s really promising how it looks like, yeah. Okay. But we also you just said that RNA is generally more unstable or less stable than DNA, is there a problem with that as well in ourselves? So yeah, that was one of my initial questions when I actually heard they’re doing a new vaccine. But how? Because you inject and that it will be destroyed, right? I mean, that’s what I learned. That’s what I remember from my basic immunology lessons like back in the days is like RNA vaxines are just less stable than DNA. That’s why we would go for DNA, but all of a sudden, yeah, last year, they said, oh, let’s have an ever goes like, how’s that possible? That goes against everything that I learned. So exactly like that. I mean, on the one side of that, it’s actually it’s good, it will be destroyed, because you don’t want to have this vaccine forever in your body. Okay. It’s just simple that you will be injected, there will be some production of this protein, increasing immune response. And then, okay, gone, you don’t have this inside of you. I just not, we don’t want to make it happen too quickly. I don’t know exact details, how did they achieve that. But I know that what from what I read that the companies that were working on these mRNA vaccines were working on their stability inside animal models, and a few years ago, so they were trying to solve this problem, how to keep the vaccine in the body long enough to cause the immune response, but not extremely long and toxic. So in the end, they found the optimum design for this RNA molecule, which actually is doing the job. And we can see, looking at the numbers that it’s actually working. Yeah. Well, that’s really cool. Thank you so much for answering all these questions that we had on social media and for teaching our audience all of this. So now, at the end of our interview sessions, we have like a couple of random questions that we want to ask all of our interviewees. Are you up for that? It’s gonna be three questions about something completely random. I mean, still science related. But yeah. Yes. Okay. I can do it. Yes. Okay. So the first question is, what would you do if you were donated $10 million, to your favorite project that you’re working on? And in this case, obviously, I talked about STEMcognito? Because it’s your favorite project at the moment? Your heart is right now. So what would you do if you had like $10 million to support this cause? Well, you would finally, all of us, in STEMcognito we would get paid! Oh, wow. That salary involved? I didn’t know about that. Because most of people might not know, but we are working completely free. This is a not for profit organization that is trying to, to give ourselves to scientists and to public. And for now, we didn’t have any donations. So basically, we are working for free. But if we were awarded $10 million, I think, well, I would definitely start as a CEO, by paying my fantastic co-workers. Yeah, for the time that they spend on STEMcognito, because they’re doing excellent job. And it’s really rewarding to actually be really rewarded financially, let’s not think that something wrong, and then we would have a big meeting to establish our bigger plans with available budget, which would probably be a lot of marketing and hiring, for example, we want to be very accessible so we could hire translators that would translate all the talks for and provide subtitles for all the talks to make it more accessible, to have better software, to make better videos, to help people make videos. Basically, it’s like never ending, you know, brainstorming ideas and… Yeah. That’s always what is coming up whenever we have a weekly meeting this always I remember my list is always getting longer longer of like ideas we can do and establish on the on the platform. Yeah, I was… Yeah, exactly how what plugins we can buy to make the website better. And or other things that I don’t understand. But yeah, so yeah. I like the idea. Yes. Yeah. Right. Oh, next question is then what was your favorite subject at school? Back in the days? Biology! Biology? Yes. I always liked all this science topics of biology, chemistry, physics, math. But biology was kind of the easiest. Okay. For me to remember everything. Really? I mean I’m exactly the same like I always like all the STEM fields like math, chemistry, biology, physics, but I always preferred chemistry over biology, which is also why studying biochemistry rather than just biology. But then I still ended up in microbiology, but yeah, I always preferred chemistry just a tiny bit more. But yeah. Yeah, I always preferred something, which is more complicated. And for some reason, I’m really attracted to really complicated, difficult experiments, complicated projects. Internet platform with people I never met in real life, you know, it’s just what I like. Awesome. Okay, and then the last question we have is, what do you do in your free time if you don’t work on STEMcognito? If you’re not in the lab? What do you do? What is free time? How do you define it? Does sleep count as a free time because I sleep sometimes? I eat. Okay. There must be hobbies of yours? Please tell me there is hobbies. STEMcognito is my hobby. No, but from other things where they really do when I don’t work. That will be I like hiking and going for long walks with beautiful scenery and jogging. Eating, I’m a foodie, and my stomach is half Italian and half French. That includes wine. Yeah, that’s it, I think, gardening I love. Gardening, of course. Okay. And then in Australia, you always have the best weather. So you must have a beautiful garden then. I have a nice garden. Okay. However, I always need to wear garden gloves when I dig, it’s Australia after all. And I made friends with all the spiders that live at my home. I’m given them names. Okay. So, but I’m aware that sometimes, you know, I can encounter something that I don’t want. One of the spiders actually made a home in my shoe. Oh, wow. And I checked my shoe. Because I know that’s what you’re supposed to do. And yeah, and she ran away. Okay, that’s good. I’m glad you’re safe. With all this stuff that is growing, they are living in Australia. Okay, good. Awesome. Thank you so much Marta for being interviewed today in our very first part of the STEMcognito interview series. It has been a real pleasure talking to you. And I hope you can now enjoy your Sunday evening. I just started my Sunday morning now because you know, there’s like, how many hours like 10 hours difference between us? I think so. Yes. I thank you very much for asking me all these questions. I did my best answering. I’m still learning the scientific communication. So. Yeah. It was lovely to chat. And yeah, and we will. Yes, exactly. Okay. Talk to you soon.